EP 06 — The Realtor® Episode (ft. Theresa Hatton)

Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to Real Estate. It's not that complicated. Broker Ryan Cook and Curious co-host Kent Thaler guide you through buying and selling minus the jargon. Here's today's episode. Take it away guys.
Ryan Cook: Hey, I am Ryan. 
Kent Thaler: Hi. And I'm Kent. And welcome to Real Estate. It's not that complicated podcast. 
Ryan Cook: Today we actually, and this is a personal friend of mine, but also the Chief Executive Officer of the Massachusetts Association of Realtors, Theresa Hatton, will be joining us today and I thought it was really important to have her.
Ryan Cook: 'cause as we've been going back and forth, we talked to buyer agent specialists and seller, agent specialists and lenders, et cetera. One of the things that I think people really have a hard time understanding is what is the difference between a real estate licensee and a realtor, because they just use realtor as a general term.
Kent Thaler: Yeah, it's Kleenex versus tissue. 
Ryan Cook: No, that's a fantastic example. [00:01:00] I will give you credit where credit is due. That's a great example. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. It is what they do. Thermos versus insulated water bottle. I mean they take the brand and they conflate it with the profession.
Ryan Cook: Yeah. 
Kent Thaler: And there is a difference between being a realtor, which rhymes with Skeletor. 
Ryan Cook: You're so proud of yourself. 
Kent Thaler: I am. That was a good one. A licensee, there, there is a difference. And the difference has to do with the scope and the, organization behind a realtor. 
Ryan Cook: And it's not just, listen, this doesn't mean that a non-real licensee is bad at his or her job.
Ryan Cook: But what it is I think there's a different level of commitment, and I've been both a realtor and a non-real. For six years I was a non-real. when I joined the organization again and started getting involved, for me at this point, there's no other way. I will never not be, a non-real again.
Ryan Cook: [00:02:00] Because the scope of what we do, and I think explaining a lot of what the organization does, because some folks will think that it's realtor members. It's the only benefit. And we're actually like a defacto national homeowners or national property owners, association as well.
Kent Thaler: I think that, I equated it almost to being like a guild. In some ways in that you provide an awful lot of services that take advantage of the numbers that you have behind the organization. And I think that's really important, especially when you're trying to advocate for the real estate industry, both the consumer end of it and the professional end of it.
Kent Thaler: It's going to be very interesting to hear, Theresa's take on, what it is that realtors do and what makes them special. 
Ryan Cook: And she's been doing this a while. She's not new to it. She started off with, a realtor association in Franklin, Tennessee.
Ryan Cook: Moved on to Connecticut. And at this point is the, [00:03:00] CEO of the Massachusetts Association Realtors, and we were as high as 26,000 members. We've lost about 3000 members, since the NAR settlement. That's because, agents don't get involved, so just want to go out and sell, or some have a license but really aren't involved, and really aren't selling anything.
Ryan Cook: And so they don't see the benefit. And it's a shame. And I wa I was one of those people at one point, and after having get involved, maybe call it drink the Kool-Aid, whatever, but the amount of work that the association does at your local, state and national level, and I think while Theresa says, the members say forms are the greatest benefit as voted on by the members I completely disagree.
Ryan Cook: I think it's advocacy. 
Kent Thaler: I totally can see that. And I also think that advocacy is something that is often, unappreciated until you actually need it. It runs in the background. You don't necessarily have it as a focal point, but [00:04:00] you learn over time that's really what's nudging you in the direction as an organization, as an industry, that you want to go in.
Ryan Cook: Perfect. So why don't we get into this interview with Theresa Hatton, the Chief Executive Officer of the Massachusetts Association of Realtors. theresa, thank you for joining us. 
Theresa Hatton: It is my pleasure and honor to be here. I'm excited to do this. 
Ryan Cook: Just so folks know, she hasn't always been involved as a realtor.
Ryan Cook: And then she started off on a smaller association out in Tennessee, correct? 
Theresa Hatton: Yes. I started in the Concrete Association, national Ready Mix, concrete Association, but i've been with the realtor organization for 20 years, starting in Williamson County, Tennessee.
Ryan Cook: Okay. And you've been CEO what, for six or seven years 
Theresa Hatton: six years in three days, 
Ryan Cook: Yeah. And then how many agents are there? How many realtor members are there? In our state association. 
Theresa Hatton: We're currently in the Commonwealth, about 22,500 members. 
Ryan Cook: Okay. All right.
Ryan Cook: Not Florida [00:05:00] or Texas size, but we're pretty good. 
Theresa Hatton: Florida and Texas have another zero at the end. They're over 200,000. 
Ryan Cook: That's crazy. 
Kent Thaler: Is nuts. 
Ryan Cook: Alright, so Kent, you, why
Kent Thaler: don't we get this started? What's the difference between a realtor.
Kent Thaler: And a licensed, real estate agent. 
Theresa Hatton: That is a wonderful question. Realtors are members of the National Association of Realtors and the way the National Association of Realtors is set up, the realtor organization works in a federation. So there's local associations, there's state associations, and then there's the national.
Theresa Hatton: And to be a member of the National Association of Realtors, you must join through a local association and of state and national altogether. So we're three different organizations, different tax IDs, different boards of directors and governance structures. But in order to be a realtor, you must be a member of the National Association of Realtors.
Kent Thaler: Why do I wanna be a realtor? [00:06:00] 
Theresa Hatton: Oh, you wanna be a realtor for a number of reasons. If you really wanna care about your business and know what's going on, and have people that will help protect your business while you're out working your business, that's the key to being, why being involved and a member is so important.
Theresa Hatton: And I know we're gonna dig a little bit deeper into that, but if I could give just a little bit of history about the National Association of Realtors came together, over a hundred years ago because there were established brokerages and agencies selling real estate in cities, Miami, Atlanta, New York, Chicago, et cetera.
Theresa Hatton: And as the expansion across the United States took place and people were moving out west and starting to settle the middle of the country and further west, people were putting down signs, selling acres and hundreds of acres of land, which they had no title to. No authority to sell.
Theresa Hatton: And they didn't sell. They just stole the money and ran. [00:07:00] And it started to create chaos, and concern among consumers, rightfully so the established brokerages got together and said, look, we really need to step up and explain who we are, who the trusted folks are and who aren't, and how to vet your professionals.
Theresa Hatton: And so they came together and they started working on a code of ethics. And the code of ethics is what brought the organization together. They then established themselves and, published the code shortly after that. The code covers different ways of practicing real estate, how you should respond ethically in certain situations, working with consumers, working with competitors, working with other, professionals.
Theresa Hatton: And the code was really the foundation for license law today. This was before states had real estate licenses and licensed laws. So really the code of ethics and the realtor organization really shaped the founding of the industry as we [00:08:00] know it today. 
Ryan Cook: That's really interesting. You brought up something.
Ryan Cook: It was originally, and part of the ethics training and the stuff I've gone through the history classes on it and it's actually pretty fascinating because folks would show up in cities and say, Hey, we've got these tracks of land come out and literally run away with the money. And how has the organization changed since then?
Ryan Cook: 'cause obviously that stuff isn't going on anymore, but how has the realtor organization evolved over time? 
Theresa Hatton: With time, new challenges and new opportunities arise. So I'll just talk about land scams that happened right now, we're over a hundred years later and we're still dealing with land scams and, the organization you mean that 
Kent Thaler: bridge isn't for sale?
Ryan Cook: So see, I got an email Monday about the, oh, I got this piece of land in fill in town. I'd really like to sell, I'm outta state right now, but I'd really like to get it going. It happens a lot. I literally got one of those emails on Monday, and that's not the first time I've gotten one.
Theresa Hatton: So they're using agents to [00:09:00] try and get contracts together to try and sell, but they have nothing to sell. They don't own the property and they're just trying to steal people's down payments in a nutshell. There are always creative people who try and skirt the laws and the regulations and try and, do things.
Theresa Hatton: And so the realtor organizations really, we track that. We monitor that. We work with our legislative, partners to change regulations when necessary and or we also work with the court system to bring these cases together to get clarity on existing regulations that maybe just need to be clarified a little greater by judges to help us all understand how to enforce these regulations.
Kent Thaler: So anyone can be a real estate licensee, however you need to join, the association to become a realtor. 
Theresa Hatton: Yes. 
Kent Thaler: Okay. As a realtor, I agree to this code of ethics.
Kent Thaler: Which is great, but it would seem to me that if I can say I'm a licensed [00:10:00] realtor, then any potential customer who wants to buy a house or sell a house can feel more comfortable with me as an agent. 
Theresa Hatton: Yes. And know that they have the ability to file a complaint should they feel as though something unethical occurred.
Theresa Hatton: The enforcement of the code of ethics, as Ryan mentioned, he's gone through training. He sits on our professional standards committee, and I have to say, He is an chair of these committees because you need to follow due process, but you also need to understand the code and be able to enforce it.
Theresa Hatton: members of the public can file complaints, brokers can file, realtor members can file complaints against other realtor members. We also have an arbitration clause. So brokerages who may have a commission dispute will come to the realtor organization to arbitrate their dispute as opposed to going to court, which is way more cost effective and also better for the consumers because if the consumers were dragged into court every time there was a commission dispute, that might make them [00:11:00] worry about maybe using a professional.
Theresa Hatton: So the arbitration really, gives them, a bit of solace to know the brokers will take care of it themselves. 
Kent Thaler: And I'm assuming it's non-binding arbitration? 
Theresa Hatton: It is binding arbitration. It's 
Kent Thaler: binding arbitration. 
Theresa Hatton: Yeah, so that's one whole side of the code of ethics related to the realtor organization.
Theresa Hatton: We are a 5 0 1 C 6 organization, so the IRS code says that we're formed to lobby, network, and educate, and that's exactly what we do. Those are our three pillars. 
Kent Thaler: So what are some of the things that the Massachusetts Association of Realtors is working on currently?
Kent Thaler: And how is that different than what the National Association of Realtors is working on? 
Theresa Hatton: Oh, that's a great question. So the National Association of Realtors takes care of everything on the federal level. So working with HUD on the federal level, working with the VA on the federal level, working with USDA, as you mentioned on the federal level.
Theresa Hatton: And then what we do at the Massachusetts Association of Realtors is we focus [00:12:00] everything on the state level. And the local associations focus on things that are happening at the local level. Now we all partner and work together because we have, subject matter experts at all levels of the organization.
Theresa Hatton: So we all do work together, but our lanes are our lanes. So for example, let's talk about South Coast Rail. That was, an initiative. Heavily focused on by the local association because it benefits that area, but supported by the state association for the funding and infrastructure and resources it needs to get rolled out.
Theresa Hatton: Which apparently is having a really important impact right away immediately on real estate prices and access down there. Things like that. 
Kent Thaler: Hold on one second. 
Theresa Hatton: Yeah. 
Kent Thaler: For those of you who are not from Massachusetts who are listening to our podcast, 
Theresa Hatton: sorry.
Kent Thaler: The South Coast Rail is, if I, correct me if I'm wrong, is an MBTA line that's going to connect Boston to New Bedford and Fall River. And then eventually I have been told Fall River to [00:13:00] Providence, and maybe go over the Second River Bridge into Newport. At least that's what I have been told.
Kent Thaler: I don't know if that's actually going to happen. 
Theresa Hatton: I can't speak to Rhode Island okay.
Kent Thaler: I have been, that's what I've been told. Again, I, 
Ryan Cook: but so that is actually 
Kent Thaler: the Fall River and New Bedford thing is very interesting.
Ryan Cook: Yeah. That is, actually my local association. My association executive Paul Chase was instrumental in heading up a lot of the, committees, the South Coast Rail Project, et cetera. And getting our association, our members involved reaching out to the state association for resources and resources could be funds.
Ryan Cook: Those resources could be, tapping into legal resources that are available through our state association. So we have a great legal team that helps us. They'll do, those friends of the court, amicus. Brief, and support. So there's a lot of effort that goes into it.
Ryan Cook: Like the biggest thing I like to tell folks is [00:14:00] that the association, you would think like a licensee it's a trade organization, right? And we become members and you'd think that trade organizations typically just focus only on their members. But I've been a realtor and I've been a non-real, and I would never go back to being a non-real at this point, because now that I've seen everything that we do as an organization, the difference is that the realtor organization supports.
Ryan Cook: Obviously it's members and all property owners and because we wanna make sure it's still easy for people to transact business, to sell property, to buy property, to not have all sorts of government regulations. And to make it as easy as possible. And that's, a lot of, there will get in more later on all the different things the association does and you'll sit back and you go, wow, like you guys are touching a lot of stuff.
Ryan Cook: There are how many, [00:15:00] I'm not sure how many different committees we have at our state level, but then at the national level, the number of committees of people focusing like hyper focusing on. Specific or particular topics? Taxation. We did one in Massachusetts called MBTA zoning, the Mass Bay Transit Authority, the T, and trying to work on affordable housing.
Ryan Cook: The affordable housing bill that was signed by Governor Heal in Massachusetts last year. We were very instrumental in working with that. And even, there's been, they added, legislation as part of that bill on, home inspections that we've been very instrumental in helping to shape that. I'll let Theresa talk more on, but, I just wanna make sure, like I'm giving me as a member there, there's the president's perspective and then there's the member's perspective
Ryan Cook: so I've been very proud to be a member. 
Kent Thaler: Okay. Let me see if I can simplify this, because the name of the podcast is Real Estate. It's not that complicated. 
Ryan Cook: Yes. 
Kent Thaler: The organization, the [00:16:00] realtor, mass Association of Realtors, is a twofold organization. One is, it's a professional, for lack of a better term guild.
Kent Thaler: And, at the same time, it is an advocacy group and it performs both. It, it gives, not only should it give consumers like myself, who I don't live in Massachusetts, but if I lived in Massachusetts or in my case, the Red Island one, it gives us confidence that the professional that we're dealing with is living up to a set of standards while also in the background, you're combining your voices to allow you to be able to push for.
Kent Thaler: Legislation reforms and other administrative necessities, as a group to make the real estate process go more smoothly or to help with certain projects that will enhance the real estate market. For example, the South Coast Rail, which is going to make, living in New Bedford, especially, fall River also, but New [00:17:00] Bedford, especially that area, far more accessible to Boston.
Kent Thaler: Which in turn will allow people to be living out there and working in Boston. And it'll be a dramatic change without having to put in a new highway.
Theresa Hatton: So yes, networking, education and advocacy are the three pillars of our organization. And, I'm just gonna pick up on something Ryan said, because it's a very important, there is no, association of homeowners per se, that's like a national, big, huge organization.
Theresa Hatton: There's, local towns that might have, friends of New Bedford or wherever. But our organization, we advocate for our members, but also for their customers, for the consumers, for the private property owners, for renters, we take, we really speak up on their behalf as a coalition and an organization so that they can enjoy [00:18:00] the rights that they should have by owning their properties.
Kent Thaler: Got it.
Theresa Hatton: I not suffocating public health. Like we have a framework 
Kent Thaler: you might not suffocating 
Ryan Cook: public health. And I'll add in one more thing, Ken. The one thing you forgot is a lot of us put, empty our wallets to participate as well. 
Kent Thaler: Gotcha.
Kent Thaler: Okay. So I wanna concentrate a little bit on the code of ethics, part of it because, as a consumer, whether I'm buying or I own a house, I may sell it at some point in time. I have two daughters that are coming into that age of looking to buy a house. I'm very fascinated by the process, which is how the podcast got started because I asked Ryan all sorts of questions and he said, oh, we should tape this and put it out as a podcast.
Kent Thaler: How your the code of ethics, what the foundations of it are and how it separates you from, just a standard licensee. 
Theresa Hatton: The code starts with our preamble, which really constitutes the beginning of our advocacy [00:19:00] positions. It's the highest and best use of land, the widest amount of ownership opportunities for everybody.
Theresa Hatton: And so it starts out with this overall essence of this is what we believe and this is who we are and this is how we're going to function. The essence of the preamble is the golden rule. Treat others how you want to be treated. Let's all be fair and just with each other. And then the code goes into three different sections.
Theresa Hatton: The first section covers, duties to the public. Second section is, duties to the other realtors. And the other section is duty to members. The duties to the public. It's be honest, be transparent. Let the public know that you are licensed in your profession, which is real estate.
Theresa Hatton: You are not a home inspector, you are not a lawyer, you are not a mortgage provider. You are licensed in that, and you are going to function in that, specialty [00:20:00] and refer out any other specific services needed to a professional of that, caliber and specialty. So that's the general first section.
Theresa Hatton: And they won't take, their own personal interest into, account when managing, real estate transaction. So for example, let's say that I call Ryan and I say, Ryan, which could happen. I keep looking and I keep asking like, should I do this? Should I call Ryan and ask him to show me this property?
Theresa Hatton: We live near each other right now, so I'm constantly looking. Gotcha. If I were to say, look, I found this house. I really think this would be great, come look at it with me. If Ryan sees it and says, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I've been looking for, that's covered in the code as well, he would have to disclose that to me.
Theresa Hatton: I would then have the opportunity to say, thank you for telling me I'm no longer going to work with you because I'm not sure you could, represent your interest and my interests at the [00:21:00] same time. So it's those above and beyond disclosures that are included in the code that touch on the ethical responsibility, not just the technical part of the transaction.
Kent Thaler: Okay. And then so what do you expect from a realtor? meaning when you guys, I'm assuming, have a screening process. I'm assuming that you don't just let anybody in and you may let anybody in with the right check. My assumption is that you've gotta be a member in good standing and have to have X amount criteria.
Kent Thaler: I guess what I'm really asking is what's the criteria to become a realtor? 
Theresa Hatton: Absolutely. For the Massachusetts Association of Realtors, you must be licensed in the Commonwealth. So first thing, first, you have to have a real estate license. Our membership is structured so that the broker, the brokerage determines whether or not they want their brokerage to subscribe to the code of ethics and become a realtor.
Theresa Hatton: So the broker [00:22:00] becomes a realtor, and then the. The broker encourages their licensees, affiliated with 'em to join the realtor organization as well. If they don't, then they're, sent an invoice for, assessments for those licensees who didn't join. And so it's the broker that decides to become a realtor member or not.
Theresa Hatton: And the broker then says, okay, I'm going to recruit agents who I believe can uphold the code of ethics. So it really sits with the broker to do that. Agent doesn't, reading process 
Kent Thaler: doesn't, it doesn't sit with the, so if I am a licensed realtor at brokerage X and I move to brokerage y, who's not?
Kent Thaler: A member of the realtors, I no longer can, enjoy the benefits of being a realtor. 
Theresa Hatton: Correct? Yes. It's an all in approach, specifically because the code is, hey, you are stepping up as a brokerage to abide by the code of ethics. I will share though as well, let's say, you are a realtor member.
Theresa Hatton: You go [00:23:00] through the code of ethics, process where somebody files a complaint and you're found in violation of a section of the code of ethics. You must comply with whatever the ramifications are, whether it's a fine or education or, retraining or going through a new member orientation again, et cetera.
Theresa Hatton: You can't just not do that and go apply to a different realtor organization. The realtor organization, because we are nationwide, you have to get a letter of good standing. So if I move from Massachusetts to Connecticut, I have to go to the Connecticut Local Association and say, here's my letter of good standing from my other local association, that I don't have any outstanding code of ethics, that I'm up to date with my training.
Theresa Hatton: And here you go. 
Kent Thaler: it's interesting. there is institutional memory. There isn't, for example, for drivers, all 50 states don't share driver's license information, for example. 
Ryan Cook: Yeah. And actually one of the nice things about, that [00:24:00] process is that. Agents who are realtor members understand that they're being held to a standard.
Ryan Cook: And our contracts, that we, the legal team, I'm on the forms committee for the Massachusetts Association of Realtors. So we review those and those contracts are put in place to not just protect the member, but protect the clients as well. And it provides them means of redress within the contract itself.
Ryan Cook: Rather than trying to go through your state court system where it can be dragged out, you're paying fees in order to file. And eventually people just, they're like, it's not worth it here. It's a guaranteed that you have the opportunity to have your complaint heard. And if someone's doing something wrong, we are a self-policing organization.
Ryan Cook: We do take that stuff seriously because I don't want to be associated with people doing the wrong things. 
Theresa Hatton: And Ryan saying that as a broker as well as another professional colleague, you want your colleagues to be all in, to do the right thing for the [00:25:00] consumers. 
Kent Thaler: Got it. How do consumers benefit when they're working directly with a realtor in this particular case?
Kent Thaler: I understand that they have recourse, but are there other resources that you guys supply? Do you have for example, lists of approved, say, mortgage, originators or, approved, inspectors or, contractors i'm just curious as to what additional services you offer that as a consumer I can expect to,
Kent Thaler: have access to, because I'm working with a realtor instead of just a licensee. 
Theresa Hatton: That's a great question, and I'll just, pivot that a little bit to say, as an organization, our consumers are our realtor members. That's who's coming to us, mostly who we're providing services, but we do provide resources, and I'll give an example of Mass Realtor is a website and it explains a lot about, the Fair Housing regulations in Massachusetts and also rental, the experience that you should have while renting a property in [00:26:00] Massachusetts and the resources that you have available should you have any questions or conflicts or concerns.
Theresa Hatton: So we are the conduit to say, here are the resources at, the Office of Housing and Livable Communities that can answer these questions for you, or these are the resources at mcad, should you have experienced any sort of, potential discrimination. Here are resources to get funding for section eight programs or whatnot.
Theresa Hatton: So we provide the resources to the services. We do not have approved any other third party vendors that's got it on that. 
Ryan Cook: No. I, but what I will say is, the association itself real big on education, so offer a lot of, continuing education, to our members. Also certifications. Agents can develop specialties. That the association, has developed curriculum as the agents can be, become better providers of services, to clients and a number of other things as far as legal [00:27:00] advocacy, which we should probably, move on to a little bit more of that stuff.
Ryan Cook: 'cause for me, like that is the advocacy portion is the greatest benefit that 
Kent Thaler: I was just about to ask about the NAR settlement. 
Ryan Cook: Oh, okay. Why don't do that? Because it those, my point was that the advocacy side, I think is the biggest benefit that I think most agents don't clearly understand.
Ryan Cook: And I've been myself, as a past president of my local association, we have gone and put on presentations and we put on some regular presentations to some really large offices, myself and the, association executive giving them updates. On advocacy efforts that our association is doing and their efforts both nationally and at the state level and the very local level.
Ryan Cook: That I think is one of the greatest benefits. Like I said earlier, it can't be, mentioned enough as a lot of the members aren't just, paying annual dues. A lot of them step up and are donating to a lot of these advocacy efforts because they care about, the industry [00:28:00] as a whole.
Ryan Cook: You could probably ask, Theresa, your question about the NAR settlement. It may be sick of talking about it at this point since it's been almost a full year since that's come up, but it's been a couple of years in the process. 
Kent Thaler: I, Theresa, without boring you to no end,
Kent Thaler: I can't guarantee, but I'm betting that the approach that I'm gonna take on this question is a little different than a lot of other people take, if you can't tell by the questions I've been asking them. I'm very interested in how everything affects the consumer, right? Because my background is in marketing, and I've been doing that for 30 plus years.
Kent Thaler: And so I see everything through a consumer product lens. When the NAR settlement happened, Ryan and I had a long talk about it, because it solved a problem that drove me nuts. That was when I sold my first house or condo, why I had to compensate.
Kent Thaler: The buyer's agent just drove me nuts. I'm curious, with the NAR settlement if you could explain to our [00:29:00] viewers a little about the NIR settlement, but really how that's changed the way you guys advocate for listing agents versus buying agents. 
Theresa Hatton: It doesn't. So we've always advocated that you should have a listing agent and buyers should use a buyer's agent.
Theresa Hatton: Everybody deserves in such a monumental purchase, typically one of the most expensive purchases of your life that you have representation. So we advocate for everybody to be able to have access. And one of the challenges that I've been concerned about and hearing about now post settlement is that when you are telling people you have to have a buyer's agent, but if you can't afford to pay them.
Theresa Hatton: The settlement basically encouraged people who didn't have the money to use a buyer's agent to not have representation. And that's a problem. And I'll [00:30:00] talk about veterans, for example. In terms of advocacy, the way the va, had their regulations written, you could not compensate a buyer's agent directly.
Theresa Hatton: So it would all allow the settlement basically said to veterans, Hey, you can't use this great benefit that you sacrificed your life, for this country. And now you can't use a 0% down payment mortgage. Even that we said you could. The settlement took that away. But the National Association did, reach out and had, long talks with our legislators, many of whom have served our country in the military service as well, and with the VA to review their regulations so that they're.
Theresa Hatton: Members could use a VA loan and have representation. So the settlement. Made things, I think, more confusing for people. 
Kent Thaler: Oh, we definitely think it made things more confusing, which is why we're asking these questions. 
Theresa Hatton: Yes. At the [00:31:00] end of the day, everybody should have representation, and it's always been negotiable how that payment or representation fees get paid, whether it's gets paid through the seller, whether the buyer pays it directly.
Theresa Hatton: Now what happens is it's just more of a conversation. It's a bigger conversation now during the transaction than it was before. But it was always negotiable. It was always the ability to accept compensation or not offer compensation or not. These were all options. Now it's just, made some of our folks who are buyers, and especially first time home buyers, a little scared that they can't have representation because they can't afford it, and that's not the case.
Theresa Hatton: Everything is negotiable. And that was the key to the settlement. Let's just talk about it more and have it more. 
Kent Thaler: I guess that the question becomes, when you say everything's negotiable, right? What is it exactly that a potential home buyer is [00:32:00] negotiating with a realtor, right?
Kent Thaler: I know what a listing agent is negotiating, right? Listing agent is saying, I'm selling this product. It's no different than if I go buy a car, if they're selling a car, or if they're selling a boat, or if they're selling fruit in a market, right? They have an actual product, they're selling it, and they're taking a percentage of the sale for their time and their effort.
Kent Thaler: But the buying is a little more, what the buyer's agent is bringing to the table is a little more. Nebulous, for lack of a better term 
Theresa Hatton: I don't think so. So what a buyer and what they're going to negotiate with their agent are all of the terms and all of the services that they wish to receive.
Kent Thaler: Okay. 
Theresa Hatton: And then they'll negotiate how they're going to pay for such services. So for example, if I wanted to buy a house, in Mansfield, Massachusetts, I may seek, out Ryan's services in that area. But if I wanted to buy a house in, Pittsfield, Massachusetts, I may [00:33:00] negotiate Ryan, your limited services to Mansfield.
Theresa Hatton: And I'm going to limit my buyer agent services to Pittsfield to another licensed realtor individual up in that general area. So you. Define your scope of that, then you can define your scope of what you're interested in. Ryan, I would like for you to find me a single family home with four bedrooms, 17 bathrooms and 92 parking spaces.
Kent Thaler: Holy crap. That's like what my two girls and my wife want. 
Theresa Hatton: Yeah, just it's never, you're not gonna find it. But if Ryan wants to say, okay, I'll take that and work for you to find that's up to Ryan. So those are the types of things that buyer agents work with their potential buyers on. Let's talk about what we're trying to accomplish here and let's see if we can make this work, and sign an agreement together to find suitable and then work through the negotiation process.
Theresa Hatton: Ryan would represent me to the other [00:34:00] broker, an agent. He has a fiduciary duty to me to protect the confidential information that I've shared with him, which is really important. 
Kent Thaler: So before you go on with that, we did an entire episode on buyer's agent, and it was actually the second episode we did as the podcast.
Kent Thaler: We did it specifically because I think this issue right here is the single most important issue, in the entire real estate transaction from the consumer's perspective. In the old days when somebody acted as both seller and buyer, a person didn't understand that if they went in and they said to the agent who had the house listing I wanna offer a 100.
Kent Thaler: I'm willing to go to 150 that the person was immediately going to the back to the guy and say he's willing to offer 150. Whereas the buyer's agent, you can say that confidential. And I think that point is the single most important difference. And why you need a [00:35:00] buyer's agent.
Theresa Hatton: Absolutely. And not just the price the buyer's agent's going to help you through, as we were talking about earlier in the code, you're limited the license. The realtor is not going to overstep and say there's mold in here, or, 
Kent Thaler: yep. 
Theresa Hatton: Or the roof is, 17 years old and was made with this material needs to be replaced, but the realtor is going to say.
Theresa Hatton: As a licensee, I have worked with several other buyers and in this general area, we had a flood in 2012 that most of this part of the town had issues from. You might wanna get somebody come in to inspect the basement, specifically around water. You might wanna come in and have somebody look at this, so they will advise you as to the other types of specialists, services, people that they may want to contact and pay for to do those types of inspections.
Theresa Hatton: Surveys, evaluations, [00:36:00] surveys to do a survey.
Theresa Hatton: Okay. So anyhow, you wanna use a professional that specializes in that area, that knows what they're doing to help you not only negotiate the best price, but to really look at the property as an overall and consider things for health and safety, which usually can be negotiated by the seller, even if the seller says as is.
Theresa Hatton: Sometimes there's certain things where nobody's going to be able to pry the property, or a mortgage lender would never lend on certain things unless they were fixed. And those are the valuable experience and advice that you're paying for when you use your buyer representation. 
Ryan Cook: Theresa, what are the types of things that MAR is doing behind the scenes or really any state association doing behind the scenes that the public has no idea?
Theresa Hatton: I feel like a lot, and I'm gonna say this and feel free to cut it out, but I also feel like our members don't know that we're doing all of this. 
Ryan Cook: Oh, no. That's not getting cut out because it's 
Speaker 6: a hundred percent true statement. 
Theresa Hatton: It breaks my heart because I wake up every day and do [00:37:00] this all day, and I feel so good for everything we're doing for our members.
Theresa Hatton: And then sometimes they don't know and it's oh, this is, I live to do this for you. 
Kent Thaler: Okay, so I'll make you an offer before you're done with this. Anytime you wanna talk about a new, initiative that you're doing, you're more than welcome to give us a call and we'll be happy to do a pod with you.
Theresa Hatton: Awesome. 'cause I've got an idea but I'll just talk through. Ryan mentioned forms and contracts, and I mentioned that as well when we're talking about buyer agency. The Massachusetts Association of Realtors has over a hundred forms in our catalog on all different. Parts of the transaction that can be used and can be used in different parts of the commonwealth, depending upon local market, occurrences.
Theresa Hatton: We'll talk about buyer agency. Again, our buyer agency agreement goes section by section with all of the options of things that we've talked about of what types of services, where for how long and for what [00:38:00] type of compensation and is the compensation going to be part of a potential offer to buy a property.
Theresa Hatton: These are all things that are outlined in our forms. we have a catalog of forms that are available to our members. It is the number one member benefit every time we take a survey. It is really helpful that. There are standard forms and contracts so that there's less confusion in the marketplace. Some people will, if they have a form that's 20 years old and that's the one they've been using forever, they might not realize all the things that are still in there when you send it to somebody that's been in business for two years and they don't realize some of the legacy language.
Theresa Hatton: So using UpToDate consistent forms is really helpful for consumers as well, because they're clear, they're transparent, 
Ryan Cook: But the association's also super responsive. Can you talk really briefly about the, foundation issues that have been happening in central Massachusetts? How [00:39:00] the association without the public knowing how the association, has been responding?
Theresa Hatton: Absolutely. So we have an issue, in Massachusetts. It's starting in Connecticut and we're discovering it, more and more further north. Where the quarries, concrete manufacturers were getting not the pure, form of cement and aggregates that they were looking for. And there's an element called paratite that is, not withholding as strong as it should. So we have foundations in the Commonwealth that are crumbling due to no fault of the homeowner. No knowledge of the homeowner, when they purchase the homes, et cetera.
Theresa Hatton: But now this needs to be disclosed. So we have a disclosure form that we have available in our form catalogs that will educate the consumers that this is a known issue in general, not specifically known for this property unless it was specifically known, and that the consumer can ask additional questions and or get an inspection.[00:40:00] 
Theresa Hatton: So we've done that, but we also have a coalition of our members who every day we go to the State House for our day on the hill, where we meet with all of our legislators from across the Commonwealth, and we talk about real estate issues. This is, again, one that is really a consumer issue because these homeowners are in these homes and they can't afford to replace their whole foundation and their property values are down too.
Theresa Hatton: Nothing or negative based upon this defect. And we are trying to work with our legislators to come up with some sort of way, some funding mechanism to help support these homeowners. So that we're doing, 
Kent Thaler: can I ask the obvious question? Why why isn't the original builder being held to account?
Theresa Hatton: These are the, concrete. Companies that are no longer a business. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah, that's the question. 
Theresa Hatton: And it came out 20 plus years later is when they started crumbling. So it wasn't even an immediate thing. So this is why we're [00:41:00] very concerned about this and we're finding it further north in, the Commonwealth as well.
Theresa Hatton: So last year we added it to our main issues for Day On the Hill. We are working with a coalition of homeowners, that are in central Mass, the Concrete Coalition. And, we are working with them as well because this really affects the consumers. And from a disclosure perspective, it really affects potential consumers if they didn't know, they're using a regular licensee that doesn't have access to our form catalog and didn't know that this form existed and that all this information existed to share with their consumer.
Theresa Hatton: Scary. 
Kent Thaler: Very, those type of things. In full disclosure I've done importing of construction products before. And we can do podcasts on that topic alone. 
Ryan Cook: Oh, at the old, sheet rock drywall issue. 
Kent Thaler: Dry, 
Ryan Cook: and it was because it's not that the sheet rock was faulty, it was designed for a different environment.
Kent Thaler: [00:42:00] Yeah. I'm always, cynical when I hear stories like this. It would not surprise me if they started to investigate that the original concrete companies knew that they were selling a substandard product, but they also knew that it wouldn't be discovered for a while.
Theresa Hatton: I couldn't speculate on that.
Theresa Hatton: I was just my tenure working at the national Concrete Association, where we had PhDs and concrete on staff and testing labs. I've only worked with upstanding individuals in that industry. So that's why this is so upsetting to me personally. I'm like, oh, if we had known, if we had tested this 20 something years ago, 
Kent Thaler: and I'm not gonna pick on the fact that it's in central Massachusetts, 
Ryan Cook: But Theresa, how does the association decide which.
Ryan Cook: Issues to really pursue? There are so many, obviously the concrete foundations, you had short-term rentals, we've dealt with, housing affordability, the millionaires and the Mansion tax that the Commonwealth is pushing. 
Theresa Hatton: How [00:43:00] 
Kent Thaler: were you guys also behind the ADU legislation? 
Theresa Hatton: Yes, we did support that.
Ryan Cook: So again, thing, things that the public doesn't understand, how does the association decide which issues to work on or which to be at the forefront of, or, how does that all work? 
Theresa Hatton: So our organization has a public policy statement that is approved by our board of directors. So that's the overall outline of these are the main categories of issues that are of concern for our organization, our members, and our consumers.
Theresa Hatton: And then we have a government affairs committee that is represented by members from all over the Commonwealth and they really determine the priorities. And they then make suggestions and recommendations on how much funding and resources to put towards, these issues.
Theresa Hatton: So I'll use rent control. Rent control, was coming up, as a ballot initiative last go around. And, our government affairs committee decided that was a high priority [00:44:00] issue and we invested some money doing some polling. Again, our members do provide rental services. It's not their primary book of business in the most part, but it is still part of, something you can do as a licensee.
Theresa Hatton: We went out and did polling to figure out what are the members of the public feel about it. We testified in front of housing committees, for the Senate and the house of reps. And we did some op-eds and we collected a number of consumers, over 40,000 consumer, end users, who are not licensees their thoughts and opinions on it.
Theresa Hatton: And it was really enlightening to know that landlords felt as though if this rent control legislation that they potentially were talking about had a max amount that you could increase each year. Landlords said that they would feel obligated to do that, whereas in many cases they hadn't raised their rents in [00:45:00] 10 years or they raised their rents very low because they really like their tenants and they want to keep them in there.
Theresa Hatton: So it's interesting when you look at all these issues, we try and build coalitions with others and say, okay, what's really going to be the benefit to the consumer on this? 
Kent Thaler: In your explanation, are you suggesting that the landlords, or that your recommendation coming out of it was that the market is better at setting pricing than government dictate?
Kent Thaler: Yes. I find it hard to believe. I, yes, I'm shocked and cha grinned. 
Theresa Hatton: Yes. 
Kent Thaler: I, 
Theresa Hatton: know. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. Anytime I hear the word rent control, I just want to just 
Ryan Cook: put 
Kent Thaler: a bullet in my head. 
Ryan Cook: Boston was a real big advocate in really pushing it in Boston, and then it was also proposed at the state level as well.
Kent Thaler: Did they do it in Cambridge for a while? 
Ryan Cook: In the seventies, I believe. Yeah. 
Kent Thaler: And then they had such a problem, that they ended up having to scrap it 
Ryan Cook: what I will say is, listen, a lot of this stuff is well [00:46:00] intentioned Theresa, that the Absolutely that, so there's, they see there's a problem and legislators.
Ryan Cook: Have never gone out and sold a piece of real estate except for ones they personally own. They're trying to solve a problem. And our job, as real members is to help educate them on the ramifications of some of those decisions. And listen, rent control has come up multiple times and it will come up again.
Ryan Cook: And I don't think that's a Massachusetts issue that is a issue that many states like 
in 
Speaker 6: the Bay Area. 
Ryan Cook: Yeah. I lived in the Bay Area for five years, and Christ in 1998, I was paying $2,700 a month rent for a two bedroom apartment. But, our job is education and to help 'em understand.
Ryan Cook: And on the rent control side, the challenge is, we deal with affordability. I was pulling data this morning. In Massachusetts, the second highest cost of living in the US behind only Hawaii. At least they get beautiful weather year round. [00:47:00] And part of their cost of living is everything has to be, shipped in.
Ryan Cook: They don't have anything locally. And I was in the Coast Guard station in Alaska. Everything was super expensive 'cause e everything was imported. We have an extraordinarily high cost of living here in Massachusetts, and, policies like that, while well intentioned, it reduces available housing and drives, costs up.
Kent Thaler: I think Ryan's being polite when he calls it well intentioned. I think that it's, they're trying to 
Ryan Cook: solve a problem. 
Kent Thaler: I agree with you that they're, I'm not even sure that they're trying to solve a problem, but again, this becomes a very different podcast.
Kent Thaler: What I will say is that. An issue like that, it's good to know that there is an organization like, MAR, that's advocating for the landlords and for consumers by extension, because they see the bigger picture of the real estate market and not necessarily just the local market, in South Boston.
Theresa Hatton: Absolutely. And I'll just, one more thing talking about, renters, which again we are not [00:48:00] the main focus for rental. There is an apartment association inside Massachusetts as well, but we do work with them. This shifting of broker fees, which really is a metro Boston business practice that rentals and the other parts of the commonwealth don't really function in that manner.
Theresa Hatton: They function where the buyer. Agent gets paid by the, landlord, anyhow, and in Boston it's a little different even in that conversation, trying to explain to, the legislators that, look, that cost is now going to go back to the landlord, therefore the landlord is going to increase the rent to cover that cost of the broker fee.
Theresa Hatton: And then that rent is going to remain increased for that entire duration of the lease if it gets renewed, et cetera. The second year, the landlord's not gonna say, oh, I don't have to pay a broker fee. Since you're just [00:49:00] staying and there's no compensation that was negotiated as part of a lease renewal, it never goes down.
Theresa Hatton: The rent 
Kent Thaler: never goes down. 
Theresa Hatton: So this shift is just going to be worse for the consumer. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. Wouldn't be the first time 
Theresa Hatton: so just a few other things we are working on at the general moment is Fair Housing and Diversity education, believe it or not, Massachusetts, when you take your real estate license course, there is no requirement for fair housing training that is required to get your license.
Theresa Hatton: And when you renew your license, there's no requirement that you have to take a course in Fair Housing. And we are very passionate about, supporting the consumers and making sure that everybody is educated and trained. So this is, now we're going back again to ask in our bill that we have to require a certain amount of hours in pre-licensing and a certain amount of hours in, license renewable 
Kent Thaler: only because I'm naive.
Kent Thaler: What do you consider Fair Housing? 
Theresa Hatton: There's fair housing laws, so all the fair [00:50:00] housing laws and regulations and Massachusetts regulations are even more, detailed and stricter than the federal ones. Gotcha. So it's on discrimination, it's on, funds, where the funds are coming from. It's on, equal access to showing properties, et cetera.
Theresa Hatton: Okay. So no steering, things of that nature. So we really are hoping that one will get passed through this, legislative cycle we've been asking for a long time. And, we're hoping this comes through, first time home buyer savings account. Can't we help our young people put money away without being taxed on it?
Theresa Hatton: If they're going to use it to stay in the Commonwealth and buy a home in the Commonwealth? We just wanna help people get access to the American dream. I know you mentioned your children earlier, Kent. I have a 20-year-old daughter. I know Ryan has, of housing age, potentially buying children. It's a real big issue.
Theresa Hatton: And now Ryan's 
Speaker 6: They're all still here, Theresa, they're all still costing [00:51:00] me money. 
Kent Thaler: Get 'em to buy 
Theresa Hatton: it. It's a big deal. I don't know of any point at any time at anybody's life where they thought buying their first house was easy.
Theresa Hatton: And not super expensive and scary. My parents felt scared when they bought their house at 45,000. I felt scared when I bought a house at 130,000. Now I wish I could be back there again, but it's just, it's always scary. It's always overwhelming, but the prices are so high now. If we can just help equip a savings account to help people get in that first time, I think it would be helpful.
Kent Thaler: I hear what you're saying and, I understand the idea of it. It's not a whole lot different than the whole idea behind 
Theresa Hatton: Medical savings accounts, and 5 29 plans for 
Kent Thaler: college. Yes. and I would argue that the solution to, making more, real estate affordable, would be an overhauling of zoning laws so that we can build more houses.
Ryan Cook: It's a great segue, 
Kent Thaler: maybe not totally unintentional.
Ryan Cook: The Massachusetts [00:52:00] Association are there. Is there legislation or zoning, issues or policy that the, Massachusetts Association or even the National Association of Realtors are involved in to try and help shape that to make things more affordable?
Theresa Hatton: So this is a wonderful question that goes back to the lanes. So we are, as the state association, we work with the, state government. So the MBTA communities state law passed, the housing choice, state law passed that helps shape some of the municipal decisions. But zoning is still local. And we're gonna have this conversation, Ryan and I, when we go to Washington, DC next week because the federal government knows there's a housing crisis as well across the United States, but the federal government only has certain tools that they can do because zoning is local.
Theresa Hatton: Same for the state. There's only certain tools that our state can do as a body to change zoning locally because it's a local issue. And [00:53:00] even looking at the MBTA communities, there are some municipalities that sued the state because they thought it was an overreach and the courts did not agree with them.
Theresa Hatton: Now they're going back with a different bite at the apple. We'll see what happens. The state can only do so much. So one of the big things that they did, which I thought was, really helpful, although may not seem super exciting, is that the state decided that zoning reg, votes are 50% majority, and some municipalities had a two thirds vote.
Theresa Hatton: So if you have five people on. Do you have one too that always say, no, nothing's getting passed, even if the majority of people wanted it. So that was one step in the right direction. And we've seen some projects get approved, that wouldn't have otherwise, but again, that's one tool that the state had available.
Theresa Hatton: They don't have the ability to go in to every municipality and say, build [00:54:00] an apartment complex there, single family here, half acre zoning here. That's just not something that the state can do. 
Kent Thaler: So I live in Rhode Island and we have similar issues and one of the issues that we have, which is I think is patently unfair, is that there are certain communities that have an awful lot of open land in the state of Rhode Island that have a two acre minimum lot requirement.
Kent Thaler: And I think that the state should come in and say that no municipality can restrict anything to a builder to less than half an acre. And that would free up a ton of land to be built. For what would end up being, I don't wanna say affordable housing in that it would accept vouchers, but more affordable housing that 
Ryan Cook: More inventory drives price down. Exactly. It's not always attainable 
Theresa Hatton: housing. 
Ryan Cook: It's not always that simple because, those communities very likely don't have sewer systems. You're gonna have onsite septic, you need a certain amount of land. So it's not always that simple.
Kent Thaler: Correct. 
Ryan Cook: No. Two, [00:55:00] I had a buddy who lived in Rehoboth, Massachusetts and they two acre minimum. 
Kent Thaler: Yep. 
Ryan Cook: for a buildable, what they call form a lot in rehobeth. And if you're gonna have less than that, you gotta go in front of a zoning board and get special permission, either in a special permit or a variance.
Ryan Cook: Yeah. And the special permit's a little bit easier to get variance. There's no guarantee. 'cause that's, a well-defined, mass general law, chapter 40 a. I think that's section 10. And, it's not always straightforward. 
Kent Thaler: Brian is not a lawyer, nor is he playing one on television.
Theresa Hatton: But it's very true though. And that's the thing, you just don't know about the infrastructure, even, building something. Does the local fire department, are they volunteer? Are they paid? Can they handle additional people and housing? These are all things and as I mentioned in our code of ethics and preamble, it's the highest and best use of the land.
Kent Thaler: But, no and I understand that, and one of the problems that they have in Rhode Island is they don't have enough elementary schools. So the idea is, from my [00:56:00] perspective, as somebody who lives in one of those neighborhoods, that's only, a half an acre, right?
Kent Thaler: If Cranston could figure it out. Rehoboth can figure it out. They can do it. They don't want to do it. Because they don't wanna do it, it's pushing the ability to buy a house from, say, in the Massachusetts example, would be inside of 4 95 to, west of Worcester.
Kent Thaler: And I could make the joke, who wants to live west of Worcester? That's an easy joke. It's spoken 
Ryan Cook: like a Rhode Islander. 
Kent Thaler: That's an easy joke to make. 
Theresa Hatton: A lot of people, it's one of the fastest growing areas, 
Kent Thaler: state's. But the reason why it's one of the fastest growing areas in the state is because smartly, the town administrators out there have said, look, we can get more population, we can build houses on land that otherwise isn't being used, and that tax base will, 
Ryan Cook: expand and it's cost of living.
Ryan Cook: for folks working in Boston Star Break, 
Kent Thaler: for example, 
Ryan Cook: If they only have to go into Boston one or two times a week. They can go ahead and they can live. Out in Barry, or they can live out in Third 
Kent Thaler: Bridge or [00:57:00] Westborough. 
Ryan Cook: Yeah. And then take the train in or hop on the Mass Pike to go into Boston once or twice a week.
Ryan Cook: It makes it much more, palatable. I know we had talked earlier about, were well-intentioned things. Theresa, were you involved with the Mass Association Realtors when there was a big push to mandate, a hers score as part of a requirement for listing a home? What is a 
Kent Thaler: hers score? 
Theresa Hatton: I came in just after that, but energy scoring is definitely something that realtors have been involved with all over the country.
Ryan Cook: Yeah. So the HERS score is an energy assessment and there was a period where, again, intentioned, forcing homeowners that as part of the sale prior to sale, they had to get a HERS score, which is having a home energy. Rating system expert come in and evaluate and score their house. And if you've got someone with an older house, they're gonna get a terrible score and you're [00:58:00] negatively impacting, it could cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Ryan Cook: And so those are the types of things that the association, again, looking out for consumers that, that doesn't necessarily benefit its members, but it does benefit the consumer, and protects the consumer. 
Theresa Hatton: And New England, we have old housing stock for the most part, 
Kent Thaler: Oh yeah. Go spend, we joke about that.
Kent Thaler: And, again I'll use Rhode Island as an example. You drive down Memorial Boulevard or down out, tha Street, and you're looking at plaques that say built in 17. Oh, he's talking 
Ryan Cook: about Newport, by the 
Kent Thaler: Yeah, it's what I said. I said Newport. 
Ryan Cook: Didn't hear you say Newport.
Kent Thaler: You said Memorial said, oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm talking about Newport and I know people who own some of those houses, right? And they're beautiful on the inside and the requirements of what they have to do on the outside, these tiny little windows certain colors of paint and stuff, because that's what it was 200 years ago.
Kent Thaler: 
Theresa Hatton: right. 
Kent Thaler: I get it. And 
Theresa Hatton: older. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. And I get it. Updating a heating system. My grandmother lived in her [00:59:00] house for 70 years and, when she was finally, getting rid of it and, moving into an assisted living at the end of her life. The new owners, one of the things they had to do is replace a 70-year-old boiler.
Kent Thaler: And one of the problems with replacing the boiler, and we talked about this at the closing, was there were very few companies that could disassemble the old one.
Ryan Cook: Needed a blow torch safely. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. Safely disassemble the old one. And get it out. But 
Ryan Cook: Theresa, what are some of the biggest challenges, or opportunities you see ahead for Massachusetts?
Ryan Cook: Homeowners, 
Theresa Hatton: there's a lot of opportunity. And I believe that the administration with their focus on housing and the funding that they put forward is, speaks volume to the awareness that everybody has related to our low inventory and need for more housing. So I think we, in the next five, 10 years are going to continue to work with the stage that was set, starting with the Baker [01:00:00] administration, and then moved forward with the HE administration to really see more production being built.
Theresa Hatton: So I'm excited for that. Some concerns I have, our business communities, if they find an opportunity to move out of state, et cetera, that could hurt. I know that the medical community, we are blessed and fortunate in Massachusetts to have some of the finest medical institutions in the country here in the Commonwealth.
Theresa Hatton: But if they can't house their employees and there's not enough housing for nurses and doctors and locations that are close enough by, that's going to be a problem. And if companies start to wonder if medical care is better elsewhere, schools, et cetera, that's a concern. And organizations like aim, the Chamber of Commerce is, they are focusing and working with, Massachusetts, on behalf of the business community.
Theresa Hatton: Housing is a big concern for our business community and we can't lose [01:01:00] our employers in Massachusetts. So I think that's something that we need to watch out for, globally. We are located on the east coast. We have amazing shipping ports as Ryan, and we have amazing air infrastructure.
Theresa Hatton: We've got rail here. We should be attracting more global players coming into Massachusetts, and I think that's a good opportunity that we have as well. A few years ago I was, representing New York State at a conference in, France called Nippum, and it's a global conference for real estate where everybody tries to showcase here, come to the United States.
Theresa Hatton: And I was at a New York table inside of the United States Pavilion and people that came to the New York table said, we're looking at Boston and Chicago. New York is too expensive, and I think that we should really take that opportunity and really look at what we can do to attract more businesses in internationally.
Theresa Hatton: So those are, I [01:02:00] think, some opportunities for us to look at and some challenges too. How do we balance the growth and expansion and solve housing right now in the next two, three years? 
Kent Thaler: How is, MAR adapting to the new generation of homeowners and agents, especially with how tech and data are changing the game?
Theresa Hatton: Love this question because I feel like I've, I don't know. Ryan and I are almost the same age, like we've been dealing with technology lives. There's no way 
Kent Thaler: you 
Theresa Hatton: guys 
Kent Thaler: are the 
Theresa Hatton: same 
Kent Thaler: age 
Kent Thaler: Lives. Ryan's a hundred years older than you.
Theresa Hatton: And, my daughter who's 20, she was the last group to be born without an iPhone in her hand.
Theresa Hatton: Technology changes, however, buying and selling a house is a huge investment yeah, you can do your forms and sign things on your phone. You can make things more efficient, but you can't sacrifice the expertise. You just can't, don't do it alone. You need somebody who knows what they're doing.
Theresa Hatton: You need somebody boots [01:03:00] on the ground. You need somebody that knows the local market. Let technology help the efficiency of the transaction, but don't sacrifice the expense of, the experience to help you along. 
Kent Thaler: Got it. Okay. 
Theresa Hatton: Sorry, that was my child walking in and the dog barking.
Kent Thaler: No, that's fine. From, my last question if you had to make a 32nd ELE elevator pitch. To a homeowner who was skeptical and thinks that realtors just want their commission, what would you say to change their mind? 
Theresa Hatton: I would say you're talking to the wrong realtor. If you want somebody who wants to be your partner and your guide and your aide, ask them if they're a realtor, ask them if they're involved.
Theresa Hatton: Ask them if they know about any new regulations coming down. Ask them if they know if a cell tower is being built in the community you're looking to move into, check and see if they're involved. Because if you find the right one, they're gonna be your partner for life. It's not just going to be one transaction.
Theresa Hatton: If you wanted to do another transaction in [01:04:00] California, a good realtor knows another good realtor in California. So take the time to really ask them questions and interview. We have so many fabulous members who really give their heart and soul for their clients and their customers and their communities, and, take the time to ask them.
Theresa Hatton: You'll find the right one. 
Kent Thaler: I really appreciate you taking your time today. I know we have a hard stop for you, but we really do appreciate you taking time. I hope that we can have you back again and talk about some other issues in more depth in the future. 
Theresa Hatton: Would 
Kent Thaler: love 
Theresa Hatton: that.
Kent Thaler: I know I learned a lot today. I fully understand the difference now between a realtor and just a licensee, which is very important to me. And so again, we want to thank you for taking your time and visiting us here at the Real Estate. It's not that complicated podcast. 
Theresa Hatton: I feel like I made it more complicated though.
Ryan Cook: No, I really didn't because the hard part is a lot of folks, they just don't understand. 
Theresa Hatton: Yeah. 
Ryan Cook: And we can always go back at another time and talk about some of the things in more depth, [01:05:00] but we were trying to just. We're trying to get the public just a high level, on the difference between, regular licensee and realtor and what the realtor organization where people will think we got a lot of bad press.
Ryan Cook: But they don't understand all the things that we're actually doing good in the background. Your number one frustration was a lot of the members don't understand the things we're doing. Listen, I was one of those members until I started getting involved and then I was holy crap, I can't believe all the stuff we're doing.
Ryan Cook: And that's what keeps me involved because I like to have a say, I like to advocate. And, it requires agents, boots on the ground. Seeing things be able to share and bring it to the association. The association as a whole can then act either pushing it to local level, doing it at the state level or pushing it up federally.
Ryan Cook: But that's, there's just, there's a lot to the organization. Most folks don't understand it. And I thought it was super valuable. And I really appreciate you coming on and helping clarify a lot of that for us. 
Theresa Hatton: My pleasure.
Kent Thaler: That was fun. 
Ryan Cook: I think we generally have a good time [01:06:00] doing these. Where I find it's really interesting is. A lot of the stuff I have the inside baseball knowledge of where I think I would want to delve into the weeds, you pull it back out and keep it really consumer focused, which I think actually makes it fun.
Ryan Cook: And actually, with someone like Theresa who's dealing at a very in-depth level on things that the realtor association's really doing to be able to pull out it was actually making me chuckle inside. You were really trying to pull out the difference between just a licensee and a realtor and why someone should or should not, or doesn't matter if they work with the realtor.
Ryan Cook: It was interesting because you really didn't let it go and I think you ended up getting, a really good, honest response from Theresa. Not a prepackaged answer, which I thought was great. 
Kent Thaler: Look I think that it's always easy to say something along the line of you should use a realtor because we're [01:07:00] realtors.
Kent Thaler: It's a tautology. And in reality, what I wanna know is what do you bring? And the answer is, the communal knowledge of 22,000 Massachusetts realtors as well as, the code of ethics
Kent Thaler: whether I agree with the code of ethics or not is irrelevant.
Kent Thaler: It's a definable document that you all agree to. And so therefore, 
Kent Thaler: The interesting thing about predictability in what you're doing 
Ryan Cook: Yeah. And the interesting thing about the code of ethics, because I'm gonna make an assumption that you've never read it. And why would you, that's 
Kent Thaler: a really good assumption.
Ryan Cook: Because why would I, why would you, and why would a consumer, people talk about it, but it's actually broken up into a number of different. Segments, there's basically realtor on realtor crime, marketing faux PAs that you shouldn't do and are, bad, and a number of other things.
Ryan Cook: So it's actually broken up. I didn't think much of it when I first got into the business. As I've gotten more involved and as Theresa mentioned. I'm the vice chair of the Professional Standards [01:08:00] Committee for the Massachusetts Association of Realtors. And I take it very seriously when I started getting involved at the state level, the president at the time came to me directly, 'cause he and I had actually put up one of his agents on a violation, where the agent took an escrow check and asked for it in his name personally and deposited it into his own personal account, which is a giant no-no.
Ryan Cook: And, I reached out to that broker. 
Of 
Kent Thaler: course that also means that we're gonna have to do an entire episode on what is escrow, 
Ryan Cook: sure. I don't know if it'd be an entire episode, but, it was wrong and he and I had to work together, but he knows, he knew at that point, like I was digging in.
Ryan Cook: I'm not looking past that. That is so wrong. It's unbelievable. And he didn't disagree by any stretch of the imagination. Obviously he is. Advocate for his agent, but he knew, and, that agent ended up getting suspended for three months, had his license pulled. And I don't do that as a pat in the back, but, the association and licensees, [01:09:00] has to be self-policing if we're not gonna hold ourselves to standards, what is the point?
Ryan Cook: And that's one way the consumers know that if we're self-policing and we're holding each other the standards, whether it be the code of ethics, in this case, 
Kent Thaler: I was actually surprised that the phrase caveat on Twitter didn't come up. 
Kent Thaler: You should probably define it for people.
Kent Thaler: Oh, buyer beware. 
Ryan Cook: Buyer beware. 
Kent Thaler: And it should have come up. And what's interesting about the realtor, 
Ryan Cook: I'll tell you why it didn't. 
Kent Thaler: Why, 
Ryan Cook: In this case, we're talking to the president, the Massachusetts Association Realtors, Massachusetts is a buyer. Beware state.
Kent Thaler: the larger point is that there's two different definitions of that, right? One is buyer beware of the property that you're buying. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about buyer. Be aware of the professional that you are using. 
Ryan Cook: Oh, so actually no, we did talk about that.
Ryan Cook: We just didn't use the phrase, 
Kent Thaler: I know. 
Ryan Cook: We, but when she was talking about the foundings of the National Association of Realtors [01:10:00] and, the land grab as the country moved west, and land speculators were selling land, they didn't own and pocketing the money and running. 
Kent Thaler: I'm, people still try and do that, right?
Kent Thaler: I made the joke about the bridge when the bridge isn't for sale, 
Ryan Cook: and I made the statement that, three days ago I received one of those emails through realtor.com, which by the way, is not owned by the National Association Realtors. It was sold, I think in 1996.
Ryan Cook: Don't quote me on that, I'm pretty sure, to, move Inc. And that's owned by the Murdochs, 
Kent Thaler: yep. 
Ryan Cook: But, it came through realtor.com as someone, I have land to sell and this, municipality, I'm not in the area, but I'd really like to get it on the market soon.
Kent Thaler: Send me a picture of the clear title and we'll get started. 
Ryan Cook: The thing is they'll, no one has title on them. You'd look it up in the registry. They could look it up and they have, they're using the person's name and they have some information to sound legitimate, but you're like, send me a copy of your driver's license.
Ryan Cook: And what was [01:11:00] interesting, did a quick search on the name, and the person who owns the land is a realtor in Florida, so it was easy to verify that it wasn't, that person. But, that stuff still happens. Yeah. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. It's, there's a lot of fraud. Anytime you're talking about trillions of dollars.
Kent Thaler: We mentioned this, in a pa past, past podcast, but I'll, it's worth mentioning again. Everybody talks about Apple being the largest, company, by value in the world. However, if you look just at sales, they're not, I believe that it's, Coldwell Banker. Or used to be Century 21, in, in that, 
Ryan Cook: although those are all owned by a company called Anywhere.
Kent Thaler: But what I was gonna say is that, the point is that they do the most volume because they sell trillions of dollars worth of real estate. 
Kent Thaler: Right Now they don't own it, so it's not considered the same way. Apple owns each iPhone that they sell. But from a straight sales volume perspective, the real estate companies do more cash transactions than [01:12:00] anybody else in the world.
Ryan Cook: Now, the other interesting thing that, we went over is, people really don't understand everything that the realtor, organization does. They think they're just there for its members. It's a member advocacy group. And yeah, that's partially true. But we touched on a number of things that.
Ryan Cook: Even the Massachusetts Association is, addressing at both the state and local level. We talked about some projects at the, local association i'm a member of my local associate, but was very involved in South Coast Rail Project to here in Massachusetts, connecting Boston to, former, very large Indu, actually at one point, the wealthiest city in the world, new Bedford, Massachusetts during the whaling industry, but Full River and New Bedford, Massachusetts to, industrial cities, that need that weren't connected, to Boston itself.
Ryan Cook: So we're very involved in that. Some other zoning issues, some concrete issues where we have a big, challenge in Massachusetts and parts of [01:13:00] Connecticut where some of the quarries had, an element within their mix called piratetite, which is causing challenges where, foundations are literally just cracking and falling apart.
Ryan Cook: And homes are being condemned 'cause they're unsafe. And how the association is advocating on behalf of those property owners to get, money for them to be able to repair their homes. 
Kent Thaler: It's amazing the amount of and scope of the work that, MAR and NAR do on behalf of consumers.
Kent Thaler: It's a parallel track, right? So they've got one track where they're advocating for issues and the other track where they're acting as a kind of a super, credentialing agency for realtors so that I can feel confident that the person I'm dealing with, which is my focus on a lot of this, that the person I'm dealing with is ethical, is honest, and is actually licensed.
Ryan Cook: And if for any [01:14:00] reason they don't uphold that. There is re 
Kent Thaler: Course. And I thought that was really interesting and important. We are by no means saying that you should absolutely only use a realtor. We are highly recommending that if you don't know who you want to use, that you look at realtors first.
Ryan Cook: Sure. That's fair. I don't wanna put someone down 'cause I said, it was a period of time where I was a non-member. And it doesn't mean that, that particular licensee isn't good at what he or she does. You look at it no matter what industry you're in, there's a difference between people who are super involved in their industry to work at improving it and making it better.
Ryan Cook: And those are just tagging along for the ride. Just in Massachusetts alone, there are over 60,000 licensees, but only 22,500 members or thereabouts. So two thirds of licensees are riding the coattails, the association. And but we're at, we're still representing all of them and every single property owner, in the Commonwealth of [01:15:00] Massachusetts.
Ryan Cook: And as a member of the National Association as well, every single property owner, in the United States and US territories. 
Kent Thaler: Yeah. It's really, amazing. The work that the organization does and the scope of the work that the organization is doing. I'm talking about the national organization, but then down to the state and then the local ones.
Kent Thaler: 'Cause you don't see a lot of it. It's really behind the scenes. 
Ryan Cook: Most of it. The most important work we're doing is behind the scenes and that's, a lot of members don't know what we're doing. 
Kent Thaler: We found out, afterwards of an issue that Theresa would like to talk to us about going into the future and said the issue sent both of us to Google.
Ryan Cook: Listen, I'm on multiple committees in the state association, 
Kent Thaler: said matter of factly, 
Ryan Cook: yeah. And I was like, my response to her and private was Absolutely. And then in the background, I literally was texting some other association members. I'm good friends with other past presidents.
Ryan Cook: I was like, Hey. What's C4? [01:16:00] I should know, but, you can't know everything. There's a lot of stuff that goes on in the background. 
Kent Thaler: So in the future, we promised Theresa we'd be happy to do a podcast on the topic. We promise to be well read and understand what the issues are by then. But there are issues.
Kent Thaler: We talked a little about you mentioned that we talked about the trains. There are issues that you don't necessarily associate with real estate, or at least a real estate organization that directly affect our quality of life. 
Kent Thaler: That was the big takeaway that I got from this is that the organization is working to improve the quality of life by improving the standards to which real estate transactions are done.
Ryan Cook: That and working with your local legislators, whether, it be in your individual municipality, whether it be at your state level. I'll be heading, to Washington, DC in the next couple days, for our midyear legislative meetings. We are meeting with, members of the US House and US Senate, to bring up [01:17:00] the top issues that, legislators should be focused on when it comes to, housing, within the United States and within each individual state.
Kent Thaler: I wish you all the best of luck. 
Ryan Cook: I actually enjoy it. I went for the first time last year. I liked it so much that I signed up to go again this year. 
Kent Thaler: I'm going to enjoy the fact that we're supposed to have a nice week weather this weekend.
Ryan Cook: I'm sure it'll be lovely in DC as well. 
Kent Thaler: It's always lovely in DC at this time. The cherry blossoms are out and everything. 
Ryan Cook: Think they're done, 
Kent Thaler: I'd like to thank everybody for listening to this episode of Real Estate.
Kent Thaler: It's not that complicated. We look forward to talking to you, soon. Thanks again for listening. Bye. 
Ryan Cook: We appreciate it.
Ryan Cook: Talk to you soon.